Just a Thought...: .NET Culture Shock

.NET Culture Shock

Berin Loritsch — Fri, 25 Jun 2010 12:29:00 +0000

In my transition to learning C#/.NET I’ve run into what is my biggest hurdle: culture shock. The technology behind Java and the JVM and the technology behind C# and the CLR are becoming more similar than different. However the culture behind the technologies are like night and day, oil and water. I supposed if we were going to liken it to eras gone by, the Java culture would be more like the 70s hippie culture and .NET would be like the 80s yuppie culture.

One of the things I liked about Java was the share and share alike mentality. There are thousands of open source projects in Java, many of them with free integrations into your IDE. If you needed help with anything, there was someone with a clue that could help you—and they would. Much of what I expect out of an IDE came from the Java world. The concept of refactorings included and automated in the IDE was a major breakthrough, and now no Java IDE wanting to be taken seriously can exclude that feature. Thank you JetBrains for introducing the world to the way it should be. When .NET first came on the scene I don’t think Microsoft was ready in this regard. When the MS peddler came to my company I asked about refactoring tools in Visual Studio (this was around 2003), and the guy looked at me sheepishly. “But with .NET you can design one interface and use it on the web or on a desktop…” he fumbled. When I said I don’t do that every day, and I need something that helps me do my job better every day he wrote it down. I don’t think I was the only one to raise that objection because by the next release of Visual Studio they had the beginnings of refactoring tools included.

The Java culture works well with venerable organizations like the Apache Software Foundation. In some ways the Java culture mirrored the meritocracy already ingrained at the ASF. However, the one thing that hurt Java in the long run is also the one thing that made it better as a first language to learn. It’s that just about every major infrastructure piece has been freely distributed under open source projects. Sure, you get what you pay for in terms of set up and configuration, but even that got better with time. The free aspect is what undermined the ability of companies to make money. Why spend tens of thousands of dollars on a license when the free option was there? Just put an intern on it and it will cost less than the commercial option. Of course, that meant that it was equally easy to play with these tools yourself and make yourself more valuable to the company.

The .NET culture is a pay and share alike mentality. While there are a number of open source projects, they are fewer and farther between. Even so, plugins we expect to be included with the IDE like JUnit integration or ANT/Maven/Boost integration for builds either are non-existent or require you to pay a hefty fee. There’s an NUnit for .NET projects, and by the looks of it is a bit better off than the JUnit 4 equivalent. However, unlike JUnit 4, Visual Studio doesn’t have a plugin for it. In fact, it never will because Microsoft has its own testing features it’s wanting to push. You can incorporate NUnit, but it’s a bit more involved. Or you can use TestDriven.NET, which is not cheap.

The pay and share alike culture extends to the community surrounding .NET as well. When you need help, it’s hard to find what you want online. The only people volunteering free advice shouldn’t, and I’m not convinced that I’d be getting my money’s worth if I paid someone either. While the MSDN has gotten better, it still has a long ways to go before it is truly usable. Part of the problem is that it is so big, trying to find the answer you need is quite difficult. Even when you find it, there’s rarely enough depth to be able to put it to good use. Many .NET books are well in excess of 1000 pages. Rather than focusing on one corner of the technology and bringing the user through the process of solving a problem, the books focus on comprehensively covering all of the API and assume that the reader has more knowledge than they do. Or they are written down to a third grader, and the happy medium is no where to be found. I’m sure the Head First book is good, as they usually are.

Bottom line is that there are obstacles in the .NET world that impede self learning. It’s not insurmountable, and many of the obstacles are cultural in nature. The Job market for Java still doubles .NET, but enough key customers insist on the technology you can’t completely ignore it. Additionally, any new languages you learn can open your eyes to new and better ways to solve problems. I’m still hunting for my go-to resources in the .NET space. It’s going to be an interesting ride, and I’m actually looking forward to it.

".NET Culture Shock" by Berin Loritsch

Tue, 29 Jun 2010 15:43:18 +0000

Anton, for some questions that is partially true. However, when you have a question involving a COM object, there are cases where a VB answer has no direct analog (such as variants). With .NET 4.0 I understand that changes some, but I don’t have the luxury of upgrading.

Google doesn’t always index what you get served to you. For the most egregious pay to get answers site, you see the placeholders for the conversation–but you don’t actually see any content.

Keep in mind, the places I have the most problems really have to do with places where there’s the fewest answers. And these places with the fewest answers tend to be where I’ve been tasked to do something.

Blogs are great if you are asking about a recent post, but most bloggers have moved on from very old posts. When an API I’m interested in hasn’t been talked about for three years, the author of the only information I’ve found has moved on.

".NET Culture Shock" by Anton Tagunov

Tue, 29 Jun 2010 13:26:50 +0000

Most of the time when open up Google and try to search on an issue, the answers I get are VB. If it isn’t VB, its a site where you have to pay to get answers.

Hi Berin,

i’m in the same shoes getting my first doses of .Net this year. Pls except my appologies if you already know these:

one of the biggest “pay to get answers” sites - just scroll the page down; there’s a ton of crap but bellow that - the actual answers are in the open! how else would Google find them? ;-)
(now i’m definitely stating the obvious!) if the code is in VB.Net - then you’ve found what you’ve been looking for, right?

".NET Culture Shock" by John

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 21:12:50 +0000

Ben & Ben are 100% spot on. I’d like to see how different your perspective is a year from now.

If you want a free test runner, try Gallio http://gallio.org/

Your Google experiences with VB results and paywalls is ludicrous. It indicates to me that you’re not sure what you’re searching for. Just start with StackOverflow and use Google as a fallback for now.

".NET Culture Shock" by Berin Loritsch

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 13:37:54 +0000

Most of the time when open up Google and try to search on an issue, the answers I get are VB. If it isn’t VB, its a site where you have to pay to get answers. Perhaps then, Google is playing a part in my frustrations. While I’m new to .NET, I’m not new to programming. Usually, when I have a problem it’s with parts of the API that most people don’t deal with every day. Which might explain why I have problems finding things. Recently its’ been working with the Firewall API to query for open ports (part of an installation utility).

That said, I’m not going to give up on .NET–I don’t have that luxury. My old C++/MFC/ATL background is helping me out as well.

Yes, I am aware that JetBrains has ReSharper, and if I can convince my company to get that for me I will. That and a profiler and my infrastructure will be set.

Seeing all the responses to this post gives me hope for the community.

".NET Culture Shock" by Kroc Camen

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 08:42:29 +0000

Funny how the VB6 community was, like Java, the complete opposite; it was always about sharing your code. I learnt entirely off the back of sites like freevbcode and vbaccelerator. I switched away from Microsoft technologies in 2006 and now use web stuff which is also very open and sharing.

".NET Culture Shock" by Richard

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 06:19:12 +0000

Er…’dude’, SO was built on .net, so yeah, started with quite a big following. And I’m someone who started using Java when it was in Alpha, and am using Clojure/Python as well. Relax with the language racism.

OP: agreed it’s different, but there are resources. I haven’t found a problem I can’t self-learn for.

".NET Culture Shock" by headbiznatch

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 04:01:14 +0000

yeah, dude. all those “.net people” are really screwing up SO. totally gone to the dogs now that they are… ummm… reading books that… ummm… you don’t read…. which totally ruins… ummm…. never mind. just stay away, you .net person you.

".NET Culture Shock" by Jupiter Dude

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:46:46 +0000

Funny, when I was working in Java, I was apalled at the quality of the documentation (this was way early, of course) - I recall the web page - every API was in the left hand nav bar, and clicking an API would cause the docs to appear on the right hand side.

I couldn’t find ANYTHING unless I knew the name of the API.

When I first got my hands on Visual Studio 2003 and I typed “System.” and intellisense popped up, I was sold.

Oh, and to top it off, just click F1 and you got actual help on an API. Wow. It was a big deal back then.

".NET Culture Shock" by Ramon Leon

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 02:07:26 +0000

Don’t know if you know this, but JetBrains makes Resharper for VS.Net which includes all that cool refactoring stuff, much higher quality than what’s built in and it also includes nUnit test integration. VS.Net without Resharper is basically broken IMHO. If you like their Java stuff, you’ll love Resharper.

".NET Culture Shock" by dude

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:50:38 +0000

Ugh, more .net people at SO? Great, just great.

".NET Culture Shock" by headbiznatch

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:24:29 +0000

Safari Online. Love ‘em or hate ‘em, there be many a Microsoft book and plenty of excellent ones for .Net/C#.

".NET Culture Shock" by Steverb

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:12:44 +0000

In addition to all of the above, you can feel free to email me.

If I can’t help, I can probably point you in the right direction.

".NET Culture Shock" by Ben Anderson

Sat, 26 Jun 2010 00:11:42 +0000

What you’re experiencing isn’t a .NET cultural issue, it’s a novice issue. You are overwhelmed and haven’t gotten you footing yet. A new developer outside of a university environment will experience this feeling for any language or platform that is outside of the hobbiest phase. There are tons of resources out there you just haven’t found the trunk of the tree of knowledge yet.

My experience with java is exactly what you described for the .NET camp. It’s a matter of knowledge and experience, even when it comes to finding the knowledge, experience, and learning material. You’re just too deep into the forrest without a guide.

Staxkoverflow is a great resource. Codeplex and codeguru can also help. MSDN isn’t any worse than the java documentation resources, it is just unfamiliar territory right now.

And Nunit is easily plugged in to VS 2008 or 2010, you just can’t easily do it with the express editions since it is a violation of the EULA. 2010 actually has built in support for NUnit if you ‘t to select it as the testing framework.

".NET Culture Shock" by mindviews

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 23:12:10 +0000

I’ll second StackOverflow as the best place to get answers when you’ve got specific questions.

On the other hand, you’ll want to spend at least some of your time exploring the framework so you can find out what’s there and what’s going to be useful to you. The .NET blogging community is quite active and I’ve found Alvin Ashcraft’s Morning Dew blog of daily link collections a great place to learn new stuff. While the tool culture may be different, I’ve never lacked for good code examples when I’ve need them. Hopefully the Morning Dew link will point you to some useful resources.

".NET Culture Shock" by Ben Alabaster

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:49:08 +0000

Actually, there’s quite an open community if you care to get involved. There are hundreds of .NET devs on Twitter that you can follow and network with and StackOverflow.com has a more than ample selection of good quality professionals to answer just about any question you can dream up.

Just because you haven’t found the resources and the community and those willing to help you learn, doesn’t mean they’re not out there…

There are a ton of decent blogs - not least those by Scott Guthrie, Scott Hanselman, Jon Skeet, Rick Strahl, Marc Gravell, Joel Coehoorn, Eric Lippert, Tim Van Fosson, Luca Bolognese, Daniel Moth, and a heap of other great bloggers and developers.

The MSDN site while fairly intimidating at first is actually pretty good once you get to know the layout.

The Bytes.com website is a great resource for beginners, it’s a bit more noob friendly than StackOverflow.com which can get a bit vicious if you don’t follow protocol by reading the FAQ and following it quite closely.

Twitter is also a great resource for .NET developers, I follow some 600 people - most of whom are .NET developers that help each other out when they’ve got problems. Most of us are pretty generous so long as you don’t abuse it.

Admittedly, some of the tools aren’t as open as those you see in the Java world, and that can be frustrating, even for us .NET developers but you don’t need to shell out a fortune for a decent suite of plugins and tools. Aside from Visual Studio which costs a small fortune, Mercurial, Git and SVN are all free, as are the plugins for them. nUnit is free and can be plugged in far easier than you can write the average java application.

I’m not trying to be a Microsoft Fanboy, I’m just trying to point out that there are resources and a whole community here that is willing to scratch your back if you scratch theirs.

Before you write off a whole culture, perhaps try finding out what that culture really has to offer. Don’t just give up on it because you didn’t look in the right place or didn’t look hard enough.

".NET Culture Shock" by Berin Loritsch

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 22:29:10 +0000

Thank you for the link. I’ll be sure to check it out.

Sean, there are two groups of people who will point out that X feature existed long ago: Smalltalk developers and Lisp developers. On one level, while that is technically true, the way the JetBrains folks made them work for Java literally changed the world for a very large number of developers.

".NET Culture Shock" by Sean T Allen

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:59:34 +0000

You are aware that this isn’t true right? That all those features existed in Smalltalk environments and didn’t originate from Java right?

The concept of refactorings included and automated in the IDE was a major breakthrough, and now no Java IDE wanting to be taken seriously can exclude that feature. Thank you JetBrains for introducing the world to the way it should be.

".NET Culture Shock" by LeBleu

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:48:54 +0000

Let’s try that again… for some reason I clicked the preview button, and nothing happened. Strange, it worked fine this time.

I use StackOverflow as my main go-to resource for answers in the .NET space.

".NET Culture Shock" by LeBleu

Fri, 25 Jun 2010 21:46:35 +0000

I use StackOverflow as my main go-to resource for answers in the .NET space.